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All of the cross stitch on my blog is copyrighted, and the designer is listed next to the pic. Please do not ask me to share charts, as I will not do so under any circumstances. All pics of my work and text, unless otherwise stated, are copyrighted by me and cannot be used in any other written or pictorial form without my written consent. Thank you.

Thursday, October 27, 2011

Disillusioned

      Before I say anything else, I want to say a big huge thanks to Mary, who scraped me off the ceiling.  Mary, I really appreciate what you did for me.  I wasn't in my right mind when I called you, and it's amazing that you were able to help me like that.  Thanks so much!!!
     And now to the reason for my disillusionment.  I'm absolutely shocked to report it, but Abi G has banned me from her group.  She again called me rude and disrespectful, and I'm tired of being called names like that.  I am so mad that she and her mods would call me names, and I'm tired of being nice about it.  I didn't ask to be flamed on The Stitch Specialists.  I tried to keep it private.  I did the best I could to keep it from affecting the group, but now I'm seething.  I don't see any disrespect in trying to promote a designer's designs.  I joined The Stitch Specialists because of Tree of Stitches.  I love the design.  I think it's gorgeous, and a great idea.  (I have a much less charitable impression of the designer, but we'll get to that.)  I posted on my blog (I'm sure some of you remember) that I had caved and was going to do it.  My friend Rachel had recently joined the group, and she was interested in SALing it with me.  So, thinking I would like Abi to have the biggest audience possible, I posted to my blog that I would be doing a SAL for the design.  And then began the debacle.
     It started with a comment to my Multiply site.  A nasty comment, IMHO.  Kay said the following:
     "This is not on Julie. Abi I am sure has not given you permission to run any SALs of her designs. They are copyrighted to her and the SALs appertaining to them are on The Stitch Specialists as you well know."
     I didn't want to make a disagreement public, so I personal messaged her.  This is what I sent her:  
     "Everyone in my SAL has gotten the design from the Stitch Specialists. I'm not giving away anything copyrighted, nor am I encouraging anyone else to give away anything copyrighted. I deliberately mentioned that it's her design and her group as she asks that we do so when mentioning her designs."  
     I thought I was fairly clear about what I was doing.  Instead, I got this back:  
     "I have been in touch with the other Moderators on The Stitch Specialists and this is our reply to you.

OK where to start. No, under the strict definition of the law you have not broken copyright.  However, you did not receive permission or approval from the group owners. It is an open SAL so that ANYONE can join. The SAL is current on the group and WILL NOT be discontinued even when the design is removed.  You are not being complimentary to Abi when we receive applications from new members asking to join TSS JUST SO they can get the design to stitch on YOUR group.  Some of these people have no intention of participating in our group, they just want to go through the motions of pretending to join in order to obtain the free design and then go to your group to stitch it.

You may not be breaking copyright, but what happens when the design is no longer available on TSS and new members want to join your SAL? What happens when members get stuck with stitching a stitch?  Where is your expert?

The correct procedure would have been for you to contact Abi with a view to setting up a sub group of TSS (if you really feel it is necessary to entice people away from TSS).  Abi could then co-own the group and give advice. TSS has two sister groups, one for Chatelaine and one for Drawn Thread, but we courteously asked the designers for permission to do this, and one of them joined the group.  This is the procedure you should have followed.

You have been discourteous and downright rude. This is an insult to both Abi and to the faithful members of The Stitch Specialists." 
 (I have corrected punctuation in this statement, but I copied and pasted the words exactly.)
      I sent back this, and got no reply:  
     "I'm not starting a group, nor am I encouraging members to join TSS JUST to get the pattern. I'm encouraging people to join and participate. Anyone who knows me knows I advocate participation and sharing progress pics in groups. I don't feel that it was rude or discourteous in any way for me to invite people to join me in stitching Abi's gorgeous design. If I have a problem, I'll ask about it on the group, just as other members of my SAL will do. I would think that Abi would eventually want to sell her designs, and this extra exposure would be good for her. The more people that talk about her and show piccys of her designs, the more interest there is in her work." 
     At this point, Kay decided to go public on the group with the disagreement, and she posted the following email to all group members: 
     "May I please remind you ladies that Abi gives her designs freely and without charge for stitching as SALs within this group.  To take her designs and set up your own SAL groups is not only infuriating but extremely discourteous and rude.  Its a bit like asking you for your Grandma's favourite recipe, obtaining it and then opening up a cookery school so that you can teach it.
 
Please remember that you are extremely privileged to be given the opportunity of not only stitching a very beautiful design but also have the benefit of being able to be guided through new and potentially difficult stitches.
 
At the moment Abi is away but I am sure she will have something of her own to say when she is back.
 
Kay - UK Moderator"  
     Let me take a moment to note some things here.  Firstly, I am NOT starting a group.  This is a group of ladies who all want to encourage each other to stitch this.  One of them is stalled on her tree, the others are like me.  Latecomers to the design.  Next, I'm not trying to teach anything.  I'm well aware that I'm no expert, and I would never try to teach specialty stitches.  My plan was for us all to post a pic on our blog on Tues night, Wed morning, then post to The Stitch Specialists (and possibly other groups (well, definitely other groups for me)) that we had updated our blog with our tree progress.  An added benefit of this method is that we're not using up space in the group's albums page.  I'm assuming that they're running low on space as Abi or the mods asked last week that we not post our ToS progress, or TGE progress, in both our individual albums and the progress albums for that project.  This is just my assumption, but I think it's pretty solid based on the request.)  I posted an email to the group to please not discuss it till Abi came home, as it's her decision.  I didn't want to see people fighting or arguing about who's right and who's wrong in this instance.  It's not good for a group to have all that drama.  Things settled down until Abi sent this message into the group:  
"Hi everyone,
 
Well I got back from my holiday yesterday, logged on this morning to find that things have kind of 'exploded' while I've been away, concerning an off-group SAL that one member began on her blog using Tree of Stitches, and the response of the Moderators to this.
 
I wish to clear this up now - please bear with me, I know there has been a great deal of upset over this issue and although I do not wish to drag it out again, it does need clearing up as there has been some confusion about what happened.  I hope this will be the last message on the matter.
 This problem concerns solely the announcement of an off-group SAL for Tree of Stitches, which I was not consulted about.  It has nothing to do with people talking about their own stitching on their own blogs, or sharing their progress photos on other forums (both of which are fine) or how often people should post to 'qualify' for SALs (the only set rule about posting is that you post an introduction to the group before you can apply for passwords).
 
SALs that I design exclusively for TSS are not put up for others to use to run off-group SALs of their own.  AIthough it is not breaking any copyright law to do this (as long as you don't share charts/instructions), I would prefer SALs from TSS to be discussed solely on this group for reasons set out below.
 
Although ToS is due to be removed at the end of this month (October 2011), there is no official 'end-date' for the SAL itself; it's on-going.  Even if designs are taken down and new ones put up, people can still discuss them on this group for as long as they wish to.  We could, however, set up a sub-group for ToS (or any SAL that has 'finished' on the group), in the same way we have for discussing Chatelaine Designs and The Drawn Thread Designs, if members would prefer.
 
In dealing with this issue last week, initially the Moderators contacted
this person off-group.  They only addressed the issue on the group AFTER the person herself brought the subject up on the group, and even then, only after discussion and agreement that such action was necessary.  They felt it was important to make it clear to other members who may have seen the announcement that this SAL had been set up without my knowledge or permission, and that it was likely I would not approve of it.  Firm words were used on BOTH sides, but no rudeness and no flaming.  I fully approve of how the Mods handled this situation in my absence - they were entirely correct in their assessment of what my feelings on the matter would be.
 
I know that this person didn't act with any intentional malice towards me or the group, but nevertheless, it would have been a basic courtesy to contact me first, or indeed any of the Moderators.  If she had, all of this upset could have been avoided (though I would still have asked her not to go ahead with her SAL).
 
Off-group SALs encourage people to join the group purely to get
group-exclusive designs, when they have no intention of discussing them here because they already have somewhere else to discuss them.  Often, people taking part in an off-group SAL only want that one design, so they leave the group as soon as they have it - however, they might decide to join in another SAL later, and apply to join again to get the next design.  The result is we get people joining, leaving, and joining again, ad nauseum, generating huge amounts of work for the Mods and contributing next to nothing to the group in the meantime.  No chat = No Chat Group!   High group numbers do not necessarily mean a happy, chatty, friendly group - if everyone splinters off to discuss elsewhere the designs I create for this
group, the group itself will simply stop functioning!
 
But there is another reason why I would prefer discussions about my designs to remain on this group.  If I don't see what people are saying about my designs, then I don't know what they are enjoying and what they are not, what is working and what isn't - I have no 'guide' for future designs.  As the designer, I'm best placed to answer any queries, offer suggestions/alternatives or sort out any problems with the designs - but only on THIS group!   Also, if I'm up to my ears in "new applicant-questionnaire-PCI-Passwords-Unsub, repeat" type admin, then I've got less and less time to spend on new designs and chatting on the group!
 
Having said all of this, I have had an apology for any upset caused on the group from the person in question, and I am willing to accept this and let the matter rest there.
 
I hope this clears this subject up once and for all, and we can all now get back to concentrating on the really important stuff - stitching!
 
Abi
Group Owner"
     I have some problems with the issues Abi has with my SAL, and I'm going to air them here, as I can't go on the group and protest.  First off, Kay mentioned in another email that they have people who join the group just to get the design, and then quit.  Honestly, I can't say none of my friends would do this.  I don't think they would.  But I can't say for sure.  However, this is not something that I'm encouraging.  Anyone who knows me knows I advocate participation.  I love to participate.  I answer emails, I leave comments, I post pics and post to the groups that I've done so.  I don't understand why they're laying this established problem at my door.  I have not encouraged people to join to get the SAL and then quit.  Nor would I ever.  I think it's rude to join for the design and then quit.  Another thing I'd like to protest is the accusation is that we would have a forum to discuss her designs without her being there to see it.  A.)  It's a blog.  I post about what I've been up to, and people leave short, sometimes pithy comments for me.  It's not like a conversation.  B.)  It's a public blog.  If Abi wants to read what I've said about her design, or read the comments left by people who looked at my pictures and read my blog, she's welcome to do so.  Also, if one of my SALers had a problem or question, I would encourage them to post that to the group.  Abi would be our expert (as Kay says), and would be much better equipped to handle this sort of thing.  She would get the feedback she needed, my friend would get the help she needed.  That makes it win win in my book.  I did NOT advertise for members for my SAL on the group, as Abi says I did.  I deliberately waited until she was back because I wanted to ask her permission to do so.  If I had been as disrespectful as they say I was, I would have posted something on the group when I posted to my blog.  Instead I waited till Abi got back to check with her.  Lastly, I believe Kay owes me an apology for calling me rude and disrespectful.  I've been nothing but respectful.  In my experience (and I have nothing else to base my opinions on), designers are not contacted in this case.  On blogspot alone, I've seen SALs for HAEDs, Chats, Lizzie Kates, and Margaret Sherry's designs.  As far as I know, none of them contacted the designers about their SALs.  If I were a designer, however, I would be thrilled to know someone was hosting a SAL of my design on their blog.  I would know that word was getting out about my designs.  The more people that see them, the more interest is generated.  Interest means that someday, Abi gets an email from a publisher or a mag asking her to design something for them.  As Abi gets more popular, her designs become a household name.  (Okay, a stitcher's household name.  It's not like she's the next Stephen King!!)  This can only be a good thing.
     Anyways, I got Abi's email, and I was under the impression, because of the way she kept saying we were going to be discussing her designs, that she though I was starting a yahoo group still.  I didn't want her to have a wrong impression as Kay had seemed to, and so I sent her the following:  
     "I've told Kay repeatedly that I'm not starting a new group Abi.  I'm simply asking some of my blogger friends to stitch ToS on Tuesdays and post progress pics on Tuesday night or Wed.  No one is starting another group, and that was CLEARLY stated in the original blog that started this whole mess.  Also, I did NOT post anything on the group about the SAL until after Kay condemned me for doing something I'm not even doing.  I tried to keep it off list by replying to her public message privately, but when she flamed me on group, I felt the need to defend myself.  I don't think she should have posted anything on the group if she didn't know what was going on, as she clearly does not.  I'm going to assume you are responding to me based on her information.  Here is a link to my original blog entry, if you would like to read what I had to say about the matter.  http://mdgtjulie.multiply.com/journal/item/490/A_SAL  The first two paragraphs are about my SAL, and you'll notice that I clearly state that I'm running my SAL on blogspot.  Nothing is mentioned about Yahoo or a Yahoo group.  If I wanted to start a Yahoo group, I would have asked your permission, and asked you to join so we could get your feedback.  I think Kay owes me an apology for her public attack on me.  I don't know why she thinks I'm starting a group, and I don't think I deserve to be flamed in this manner.  I didn't say a single thing on the group about starting a yahoo group for ToS, and she had no right to call me names on group like she did.  As she STILL has her information wrong, I'm going to trust that you are as nice and as reasonable as you seem to be.  I'd like to hold my blogspot SAL with your permission, as it's no more than we would be doing anyways.  The only difference is that some people will be sending me their pics so I can post them on my blog, and everyone who's participating will be listed on my blog with a link so others can go to their blog and see their progress.  I hope to hear from you in regards to this soon.  TIA!"
      Honestly, from the way she was talking about discussion, I thought she was misinformed.  We don't have discussion on a blog.  I talk, people comment.  It's not like it's an email conversation or something.  She got nasty with me, and sent me this, 
     "Julie,

You most absolutely and emphatically do NOT have my permission to run your blogspot SAL using my design! 

Clearly you haven't even been bothered enough to read my message.  Where exactly did I say that the problem was you 'running a group'?  I said you intended running an OFF-GROUP SAL, using MY design, which is STILL RUNNING AS A SAL ON MY GROUP.  And that's exactly what you were doing!

I also explained quite clearly my reasons why I did NOT want you to do it - and you've completely ignored me!

I found your comment about 'assuming I was responding on Kay's information' insulting, and incorrect.  I have already read your blog and your mutiply site, including Kay's message, plus all the messages on the group, before I decided on what response I would send to the group.  I came to the conclusion that if you REALLY had any genuine respect for me, or my group for that matter, you would have (a) not gone behind my back to start up a SAL using my design, and (b) respected my wishes when I finally found out about it!

Kay was absolutely right when she said you have been rude and disrespectful to me.  You were asked not to run this SAL by my Moderator, and by me, and you chose to ignore us both.  Despite me explaining my reasons for why I've asked you not to do it, you have given my wishes in this matter no respect or regard whatsoever.

I can see no way forward from this situation, and therefore you have been banned.

Abi"

     I am at a loss, to be honest.  I'm sorry, Abi, that I said you must have been basing your objections on what Kay had said.  I freely admit, I thought you hadn't read my blog or my email.  I thought you didn't understand.  I partly thought this because of the language you used, and partly because I don't see any problem with a group of friends posting their piccys on the same day.  I honestly don't understand why you have a problem with my post bringing you more members and more notoriety.  
     I've been stressed over this situation.  I've lost sleep over it, I've stressed over it, and I've cried over it.  I don't feel as if I've done anything wrong.  I'm not giving away copyrighted material, I'm encouraging people to join the group to get the design, and I'm getting Abi's name out there.  I'm frustrated with the name calling that's gone on here, because honestly, I could have been a real witch about this.  I could have flamed back, I could have argued, I could have made this a huge controversy.  Instead, I did what I thought best for Abi and her group.  And this is how she repays me.  Abi is not the only person out there who's good with specialty stitches.  I may still do the ToS, I don't really know.  I do know this whole thing has really put me off.  Her group is filled with the nicest, kindest people you could ever meet.  I would have liked a chance to say goodbye to some of those people, and I wish I had been able to work this out with Abi.  (My brain still says she must not understand what I want to do, as there's nothing wrong with it.)  When I decide what to do about my tree, I'll let y'all know.  Again, a big thank you to Mary who listened while I cried and let me vent my frustrations on her.  It means more than you know, Mary

39 comments:

Tora said...

I would think that a designer would want to have their designed shared with the world, but I guess some people don't want to be successful. If the instructions are written correctly, specialy stitches don't need the designer to have to go back later and clarify how to do them. Also, most SALs require the members to purchase the design, with the exception of the monopoly SAL where Hasbro has given permission for the out of print design to be distributed freely. My hats off to Hasbro for doing that. Shame on any designer who restricts who their "free" designs can be distribute to. If you don't want them to be given out freely, you shouldn't give them out for free at all.

mdgtjulie said...

Well, I was thinking I was helping her out, but apparently, she thinks I'm no good, so.... Oh well, chalk it up to bad luck. Thanks for the comment Tora!! Glad you could read it now, although it took me a long time to figure it out!

Tora said...

I appreciate it. It makes your blog much easier to read from my phone! :p

Chaotic Crafter said...

Some people are nitwits and just plain stupid. I say do the sal just on principal.

mdgtjulie said...

No problem Tora. Just for you, lol. I'm considering it Randi. I want to have friends stitch the design with me, because I'm scared to stitch it by myself, lol. I'm sure there are a couple of people who would stitch it with me.

Nancy said...

Julie, It really is a shame that no one from that group seems to understand your real intent. I had thought about joining the Specialty Stitches Group and your Blog SAL. I had planned to follow and discuss on the group while still showing my progress on your blog which is really all you were planning to do. Just a group of friends stitching the same project that show there progress at the same place. I see no disrespect there to the designer. In fact, it would get her designs shown to people that have not had the opportunity to join her group. Had I been Abi, I would have just specified that you place her group URL on your blog so that anyone that really likes her designs knows where to go to get them. Also, I would have recommended on your blog that the members also participate in the Stitch Specialty Group. It is a shame that they just panicked and refused to see the real situation. I have not ever joined a group from a designer without wanting to see some of their designs first. Why would I want to? What if there designs aren't to my preference? I am so sorry that this misunderstanding has happened to you. And I do know that Abi's group of Specialty Stitchers has lost a prospective member. I will go else to find someone that will help me with specialty stitches. Just don't let this railroad you away from the specialty stitches.

mdgtjulie said...

I sure won't Nancy. I really like most specialty stitches I've done, and so I'm still considering doing the SAL. The sad thing is that the group members are so nice. I was shocked at the mods's and owner's behavior and verbiage. Another lesson learned!!

Doris said...

these things are typical of private clubs, they want to keep private?, it is their choice, there are many designers in the world, many charts to done. Forget this group and the incident, go ahead with other designs, and show us the progress, which is what it is in the blogging world, to show our work, and discuss how we doing, if we had problems, if the threads are great or no , choice of colors, fabrics, etc..

Gabi said...

LOL...you still considering doing the SAL. That's hilarious. You go girl!!!
To be honest I don't get the whole thing. If it's not against copyright law what's the deal? The designer might like it or not, if its not against the law, then it should be ok.

Personally I would have moved on the very moment they called me rude. There are so many designers out there with more wonderful designs I can ever stitch. And all of them seem so very nice. At least I never came across a designer I didn't like. There for I wouldn't waste a second thought towards a designer that talks down to me in whatever way. I wouldn't have had sleepless nights nor tears either. Not worth it.
But I have to admit, I like your persistence and that you do the SAL anyway. Gave me a giggle. And right now I was in high need of a giggle anyway. :)

mdgtjulie said...

It's something I don't understand Doris, but I'm glad you read the whole thing and obviously understood it. I know English is not your first language, and this was a long, LONG entry!!! I'll definitely post my progress of whatever I'm working on, though this week I'm frogging, so I'm making negative progress! Thanks for your support. My stitchy friends currently mean the world to me!! Glad I could give you a giggle, Gabi. I'm a pretty persistent person, and I really like the design. Abi is the only one I know of the designs for specialty stitches like this. Martina Weber-Rosenberg uses some, but not this many. But I don't see any reason why I can't still hold my SAL. It's not illegal, and I'm sure I can find people would would be willing to do it with me, albeit anonymously. We shall see. Of course, I'll post here again after I make my final decision.

Val said...

Well that's Abi rearing up yet again !! She just loves to have folks forever thanking her and touching their forelocks ... she is not the only one who gives designs to a group ... I also design for a group - all free - and there is currently a speciality stitch a month SAL going on - I have taught cross stitch and hardanger so anyone wanting help with speciality stitches can just get in touch with me ... she is just better forgotten about and some of her designs have been so close to others designs so don't know why she always wants to make such a fuss ... actually Julie I think they have been rude and disrespectfull to you and not vise versa and you are well shot of them ...
Val x

Rachel said...

Julie, I think this whole situation was so blown out of proportion. It saddens me, and angers me to no end. I have read everything you have posted, and the messages from the group. The problem is they don't want an explanation, they won't listen to reason. Too many people in this world are like that. You try to talk and explain yourself, and they just put their hand up in your face and tell you they don't want to hear it. I can honestly tell you that I feel extremely guilty about this whole thing as well, for the hurt you have endured because of the callous names you have been called since I offered to SAL with you in the first place. I am up in the air about what to do. I can say that I don't agree with the decisions that have been made, especially the whole banning thing. Maybe it's because I am newer to the group and do not understand 100% how they run things over there. Their instruction files don't mention things like this at all, though I did recommend they add something like that to the files so that this would not happen again.

I am so sorry that you were treated like this, Julie. I tried to voice my opinions and asked questions, but they were pretty much either overlooked or answered without really answering the question.

I have to say, I agree with what Val has said, I don't believe you were rude or disrespectful at all.


(((((HUGS))))) to you. If you ever need to talk, about anything, I am only an email away.

Charity C. said...

Oh Julie!

I just cannot believe this! I can't believe how stuck up some people can be! If you ask me they need to take that tree out of their ass and get a grip. Wow I can't believe how angry I am at someone I have never even met! I really hope you continue with this SAL!!! YOU HAVE TO! You are not breaking the law so so what! This makes me want to become part of the group and give them a piece of my mind. The whole title of moderator has REALLY gone to their heads! It is absolutely outrageous!! Some people are so stupid and I think that they should get their heads out of the clouds! I don't think you were disrespectful at all and I would have done the same thing as you! You just have to walk over people like that because they won't ever change! You have to do this SAL!! Don't cry anymore. You'd make a way better mod than them any day!

Rachel said...

Me again, Julie, lol.

I just wanted to let you know that I have written Abi a nice letter (really, it was nice), and have removed myself from their group. It upsets me too much to know of how they treated you, and honestly (because I am extremely paranoid and tend to not let things go) was afraid of it happening again to someone else, and could not be a witness to it. And, every time I saw an email from the group, it made me uncomfortable. I will miss the members over there, but honestly, I can't handle the stress over there. Wondering all the time whether or not I can share my progress or not. It's just not worth it (and my depression, panic disorder, and mood disorder can not handle that!).

I am going to stitch Tree of Stitches. I have already printed all the parts and picked out fabric and threads. The only thing I have to work on now is trying to not think of the whole situation while I am stitching. I may wait to start it for awhile, probably after the first of the year, if even then.

(((Hugs))) to you again, Julie. Thanks for being such a wonderful and caring friend and stitcher!!!!

Jennifer M. said...

Julie:

I wouldn't lose anymore sleep or cry anymore tears over this situation. When I saw the messages on the board about what happened, I was blown away.

To be honest, I was surprised at how Kay attacked you when you mentioned in your first post about the SAL. I didn't think that was necessary. She could have messaged you privately and written a more calm, respectful message to find out whats going on. Instead she sounded like the police and attacked you in front of all the members. Her response invoked all of the other agitated messages from other members on the board. It was all unnecessary in my opinion.

I don't think you were being rude at all in your messages. You were being much more patient and respectful than maybe you should have been. Kudos to you for being the bigger person and keeping your cool.

I've tried to analyze this situation from both sides. I understand your intentions and they weren't bad ones. If anything, your SAL would be promoting their group. They would get more members and more stitchers would know about Abi. A real plus for her if she ever decides to sell her designs.

As far as their reasoning, I think they are afraid that people will just join them to get the design to SAL with you and never participate on their board. They have that issue already and they probably think by persuading you not to do the SAL, it will prevent more people from signing up just to get the design.

A fruitless effort I think. What is the difference posting pics on your blog if you are stitching the design with a group of friends versus me stitching by myself and posting the pics on blog?? Nothing.

You did right and defended yourself well in all this. Don't be discouraged.

Jen

Sally said...

Julie just wanted to send you some hugs. I can't see what the fuss is about with you SAl-ing with friends. I can't see anywhere where you have been rude and disrespectful. Hold your head high, girl, you've done nothing wrong.

Jo who can't think of a clever nickname said...

I agree with Jennifer M, I think they are protecting their board, not their design. They want to keep the "chat" in one place,
I think I'd be most insulted by the "where will you go for help without us" line, actually I'm quite capable of googling "specialist stitches" and finding out that way.
It's needlework NOT open heart surgery!
Now I've seen the emails I am happy to resign from the group on principle and will be equally happy to "stitch-a-design-at-the-same-time-as-you" although I admit SADATSTAY doesn't have quite the same ring as SAL!
(((HUGS)))

Nancy said...

Julie don't waste anymore of your time stressing over this...I know you are hurt and bewildered but they are not listening to you nor do they want to listen to your side of this...the only thing left for you to do is know that your intentions were honorable and you did all you could to make them understand.

If I were you though, I would be a little afraid to go along and have your SAL with friends publicly. The mod and designer might be crazy enough to pursue legal action against you...they would not have a leg to stand on but they would end up costing you money and time and more emotional turmoil to defend yourself. It's a shame there are people in the world like that but they do exist and just love to cause stress to others.

Hugs to you and take pride in yourself for defending your position and for being the better person in all of this!

Tama said...

Wow.
Just, wow.
I have no idea what to say about this. Yikes! Why would she... why would ANY designer shoot themselves in the foot like that? Reminds me of knitter's horror-stories about a certain sweater designer I'm not going to name here because of those very horror stories! (I heard she gets on the net and searches for her name).
I did join the group, just 'cause of your SAL, but I had also seen the pattern but had no idea who designed it or where to get it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who was excited about finding a new designer...
and sheesh - they can't be the only experts out there - who writes all those books? Just one person?
Huh - turns out I had something to say after all XD XD XD

Andie said...

Hiya Julie, well first off *hugs* it sounds like you have had a horrid time! I have to say this sounds totally bizarre! For me, I don't like huge groups, I don't normally comment much as I feel overwhelmed and overlooked, so although I was a member of TSS (just left the group)I didn't comment much after introducing myself. In fact recently I have been so busy with my 6 kiddies and homeschooling I haven't even read the messages so had no idea this was even going on. I much prefer to post on my own blog, then if someone wants to look or comment its up to them and if they came and weren't interested it has no effect on me. I don't think there is anything wrong at all with hosting a sal on your blog, my friends and I used to do it all the time and I doubt Nora Corbett could be bothered spending the time answering a ton of request e-mails, I'm sure she has better things to do (Nora). I have the ToS as a wip.... I love the fabric, might pull it out and put a pixie on it instead ;) Hope your ok, I would forget about it, and don't stitch the piece if it will always remind you of this time. I think its sad for Abi, as this has caused her too loose at least one potential customer (me) if she decides to sell her designs in the future. In fact it reminds me a wee bit of the MLI debacle over on her yahoo group some time ago

mdgtjulie said...

Thanks Val. I think I will get over it, and feel like I had a close scare!! I'm glad to know you design for your group, as I'm a member there now, lol. I'll have to take a browse through the files. Rachel, I swear this is totally and completely not your fault. It is a great idea, and her reaction is just wrong. Do not worry about it for even a second. This one is totally on Abi for not wanting to understand what I'm doing and not being friendly about it. Totally not on you. I'm not even remotely upset with you. Thanks for the offer too. I love to email, and I probably will email you soon. LOL, I'm not sure the people in my groups would agree with that Charity. I was gone for a long time, and both my groups are slow now as a result. But I would never flame a member on the group, so... And yes, I'm done with crying over this. I got most of it out of my system over the phone with Mary. So I'm good. And yes, I am still considering doing the SAL. I'm so glad you're not letting them get you down Rachel. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna go along with my SAL, and if you want to join, you're welcome to. Of course, you'd have to start it earlier, as it hopefully won't take me that long to do. Unless I run into a major snag (which is not out of the question, lol). I'll post more about it when I'm positive of what I'm gonna do. Thanks for your support, and I"m sorry you had to leave the group. There are so many nice ladies there... Awww, thanks for your support Jen. So many people have messaged me and emailed me to support me in this. It's been amazing. I was just so shocked and upset by it all. I'm still deciding for sure about doing the SAL, but I'm giving serious consideration to doing it anyway. Nothing they can do about it, right??? So we'll see how mean I want to get, lol. Thanks Sally. I don't feel that I have either, and I won't let them get me down. LOL, Jo, I'm still gonna call it a SAL!!! I'm almost positive I'm gonna do it because I'm really afraid to stitch the design by myself, and I still love the design itself. But SADATSTAY does have a certain charm!! Thanks for the support Nancy. I can't imagine that any lawyer worth his or her salt would take the case. And if they do sue (LOL, at their idiocy), I'll counter sue for the money needed to defend myself, along with time and travel. They need to realize that I'm not an idiot, and I"m not doing anything wrong. LOL, I ALWAYS have something to say, Tama. And I'm glad that you had something to say too. If you're still interested, I'll be posting in the next couple of days whether I'm gonna go ahead with the SAL or not. I probably will (It would take a lot to dissuade me at this point), so keep an eye out. And I've gotten offers from some very nice ladies to help with any stitches I get stuck on. So I'm less worried than I was. You know, Andie, I think she has lost quite a few potential customers. I may not have a lot of influence on the web, but I have some. I have a lot of friends here on Blogger, and they've all said they will quit her group and not buy any of her designs should she get to that point. She's made herself look awful for this, and a lot of people are turned off by it. I've gotten over twenty emails from people saying, basically, OMG, what a witch. I'll probably still host the SAL though. Just cause I don't like the designer doesn't mean I don't like the design!!

Claudette497 said...

You poor baby! You're right and they're wrong, but you'll never convince them of that. There isn't a communication problem in any of this - they understand perfectly what you want to do; they do not want you to do it. Explaining yourself again will just make them madder. "Walk toward the light and the shadows will fall behind you". Soothe your soul with all your beautiful Chatelaines, and at some point you'll know if ToS stands the test of time. Most of all, keep your chin up. You've done nothing to feel bad about. I am so glad I quit that group!

mdgtjulie said...

I feel bad that people have quit their group over this, because the people on the group were quite nice. And, on the plus side, it solves one problem for me. I"m getting caught up on mails!!! I'm done trying to convince them now. I just wanted to know what everyone else though. Because honestly, even after Abi's explanation, I don't understand why they have a problem with this. I'll be posting SAL details in the next few days. Hope you'll join us!!

SoCal Debbie said...

I first saw a completed ToS at a craft show at the Los Angeles County Fairgrounds last March. I've seen a few here and there on blogs but never knew how to get the design until you mentioned it. I was thinking of joining TSS based on your suggestion, and I thought that posting a weekly pic to your SAL would just be sharing my progress with others, not a substitute for joining the group. After all this drama, though, I won't bother! I have plenty of other things to stitch.

Christine said...

I wouldn't have thought you'd done anything wrong and I am a designer too.
You ever want to SAL one of my pieces please be my guest

Julie said...

As I said to you the other night Julie, Abi is obviously just a stitch Nazi. It is a control issue for her and the mods (If you don't do it here and stitch it here, then you can't participate.) I will never be bothered to stitch one of Abi's designs - free or not. I honestly hope that she DOES try to sell her charts 1 day so that all of this can come back to haunt her. I know just how much turmoil that she put you through - and anyone who knows you even just a little bit knows that you are a dear, kind, generous, loving person - and that your motives are one of support. It infuriates me that you were treated this way - and I am glad to see that you have so much support. (And yes - there is a part of me that is glad to see people leaving her group over this.) Love you friend.

Anne said...

Hmmm...such a complicated issue. After reading your post and the comments I am so sorry that this has transpired Julie. I'm glad to hear that you are ok and staying strong and that people are supporting you. I think there was a big misunderstanding and an unclear definition of the rules of Abi's specialist group. If she had wanted to keep this club, her designs, her expertise, the discussions, the "SALS" private, then she should have CLEARLY stated this in the group. It is unfortunate that the moderators and Abi could not have approached this issue with diplomacy and tact. Her original message to you is contradictory and a bit all over the place. Her "tone" in the first message is somewhat mild but it changes in her second message...which becomes accusatory and heated. I think their issue comes from the fact that you have created a separate blog for the TSS. This shouldn't be a problem because all you wanted to do was show PICTURES and not really discuss anything on the blog. It's the same thing as the IHSW where people show their stitching progress for the weekend, but on a separate blog. I suppose this is the problem, it shouldn't be, but unfortunately it is. I had considered participating in stitching that adorable OWL that I saw on someone's blog, but now after this brouhaha, I will decline to participate. I stitch to relax and be happy not to be stressed out and concerned if I'm stepping on anyone's toes. Take care Julie and I hope to see pictures of your progress soon!!!

HUGS Anne

mdgtjulie said...

I have to admit, Debbie, I'm totally in love with the design. I think it's awesome. And, credit where credit is due, Abi is a good designer. I'm not as big a fan of The Great Escape, but it is cute. I'm sorry to hear you won't be joining us in the SAL, but I totally understand your reasons. It's just sad that she's put so many people off like this. Ooooooooh, another designer. Do share a link to your website Christine, so I can see what you have available. And again, you make me laugh Jules. Stitch Nazi, giggle. I hate to see people leaving the group because of it. The group itself is full of nice people, and they are all happy to support other stitchers. Just the mods/owner are a problem. I find the whole thing sad. I didn't even do that, Anne. I was gonna post pics on my blog, where I post all my other pics. I wish I understood what their problem was, as it's still giving me trouble falling asleep. Not as much as before, but I'm still getting half an hour of round and round about why this is a problem every night. (Part of it is that I just hate to not understand something. I'm like a dog with a bone, I just keep coming at it from different angles till I get it, lol.) Of course, I'll post progress piccys soon!!

Anne said...

Oh. It was just progress pics here on your blog. Then that's really odd they made a fuss!!!

mdgtjulie said...

That's my problem too. I really don't understand why they made such a fuss. It's just a few pics on a blog!!

Christine said...

Here you go Julie:-
www.alchemy-stitchcraft.co.uk
then you need to navigate to the needlework because the website is shared with my husband's photography business

mdgtjulie said...

Oooooooh, more pretties, Christine. I've bookmarked the site for further shopping!!

Patty said...

Julie - What a nightmare! They totally misunderstood your intentions. I know from other groups they are banning members that have posted their designs to other websites - you were NOT doing that. And I'm finding out that a "free" design is not necessarily "free". Just because they (the designer) give it to us free doesn't mean we have to freedom to share their design (which I understand). Again that's NOT what you were doing - posting a chart or uploading a chart is so totally different from posting stitching updates on a blog. I think they misunderstood your whole intention - got snippy - and any discussion from your end was like talking to a wall. So what happens now if you plan to do your TOS and others reading this also do TOS and post updates on your blog as you had initially planned? Maybe nothing unless some of those people were on her site as well?? Good thing I don't do specialty stitches or I'd be dropping that group like a hot potato!

mdgtjulie said...

I totally agree, Patty. And it WAS like talking to a wall. Nothing came out in response to what was going in!!!

Terry said...

WOW! What a completely blown out of proportion mess they made of a sweet and thoughtful request. I got what you wanted to do the first time you posted. I really don't get why she wasn't thrilled that you would want to showcase her design on your bog.

I'm just getting into the specialty stitches but I can tell you I won't join her group or ever purchase anything she designs (if she ever gets to where she sells them). She may be a good designer but her attitude just ruins the designs for me. Know what I mean????

You have a great week!!!!

Ewa said...

I really honestly don't understand what you've done wrong. I read all the responses, both theirs and yours, and I just don't get it. You're only doing something that you'd be doing ANYWAY. What if I said that I wanted to do a certain HAED design and I asked if someone wanted to do it with me. They would have to purchase the design themselves, of course, and we would all post our progress every Monday. Would Michele have an issue with that? I don't know.

I hope you're doing better. Don't pay them any attention. I, personally, don't think you did anything wrong. This whole experience is preventing me from joining any stitchy groups. What if I sneeze and they get offended?

mdgtjulie said...

I don't get it either Terry. I still don't get it. What a big fat mess it turned into. I think the people I got into the group have all quit, along with several others. It's really sad that they would react so negatively. She's retired ToS early, and is saying it will be for sale soon. I wish her luck! I can say Michelle would be fine with it. I mentioned to her that my friend Julie and I are SALing an HAED, and she was all, "Go for it," so I'm sure she wouldn't have a problem with it. (I LIKE SALs, lol. I know, I'm awful, lol.) If you want to join some stitchy groups, I'd be happy to recommend some really good ones, Ewa. I'm a member of about twenty five groups, and I love almost all of them. The ones I don't love aren't busy enough, lol. Feel free to ask for recommendations!!

Janine said...

Hugs Julie. Nearly joined the group but now I don't think so.

mdgtjulie said...

Oh, you should Janine. The ladies in the group are so nice and friendly. It's just the mods that are problematic. Just don't offer to start a SAL and you'll be fine (winks).